Happy Doc Student Podcast

#27 Navigating the Path to Doctoral Success with Dr. Lonny Ness

May 12, 2021 Heather Frederick, PhD Episode 27
Happy Doc Student Podcast
#27 Navigating the Path to Doctoral Success with Dr. Lonny Ness
Chapters
Happy Doc Student Podcast
#27 Navigating the Path to Doctoral Success with Dr. Lonny Ness
May 12, 2021 Episode 27
Heather Frederick, PhD

As you pursue your doctoral degree, you might feel a bit like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. There will be wicked witches, fireballs, and flying monkeys. But, there will also be munchkins and good witches. 

Here’s how to navigate the Yellow Brick Road:

  • Trust the process (and ENJOY IT!)
  • Realize doing a dissertation is both art & science
  • Don’t over-complicate this
    • You can’t boil the ocean (find the balance between too broad and too narrow) 
    • Your dissertation/doc project isn’t going to win the Noble Peace Prize (so just let that go and get it done!
    •  You probably do not need to do mixed-methods
    • Your dissertation/do project is simply a demonstration project (it must demonstrate to the academy you are worthy of the degree)
  • Scholarly writing and APA are a huge part of the process
  • Ensure a solid topic:
    • aligned with your degree and specialization (you might need to “turn the lens”)
    • it’s something you want to be known as an expert in (and will hold your interest for years)
    • substantiated by recent (3-5 years) scholarly (peer-reviewed) research (you must be able to answer: Why are we doing this research?)
    • consider the population – if “protected” per IRB you might need to “turn the lens” (instead of minors/prisoners, etc. maybe the people who work with them?)
    • consider data collection (how will you access the population?) 
  • Seek alignment before you write your proposal (is the problem, purpose, RQs, design, analytical strategy aligned?  See below for Dr. Lonny's download and also this episode that speaks specifically to the issue of alignment:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1547113/7455607

Lonny (Lawerence) Ness holds a PhD in Business Management and has been in the field of online higher ed for nearly 20 years. To date he has worked as a chair with close to 100 graduates. Not only is he the founder of Dissertation101 Mentoring Services, Inc. and mydissertation.coach, He is also the founder of donut explorers created as a community to seek, share, and promote the world's best donuts. 

Connect with Dr. Ness:

@mydissertationcoach1 (Facebook)
@mydissertation6 (Twitter)
https://bit.ly/3rWQYF6 (Youtube)
mydissertation.coach (website)
https://mydissertationcoach.quora.com/ (Quora)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dissertation101/ (LinkedIn)

Annotated Prospectus Template & Literature Review Matrix Template: https://mydissertation.coach/downloads

Recommended resources: https://www.expandyourhappy.com

Get the article: The Doctoral Journey - 12 Things You Should Know (that they probably won't tell you!): https://www.expandyourhappy.com/HDSP121

Support this free content and buy Heather a yummy green tea: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/expandyourhappy

Show Notes Transcript

As you pursue your doctoral degree, you might feel a bit like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. There will be wicked witches, fireballs, and flying monkeys. But, there will also be munchkins and good witches. 

Here’s how to navigate the Yellow Brick Road:

  • Trust the process (and ENJOY IT!)
  • Realize doing a dissertation is both art & science
  • Don’t over-complicate this
    • You can’t boil the ocean (find the balance between too broad and too narrow) 
    • Your dissertation/doc project isn’t going to win the Noble Peace Prize (so just let that go and get it done!
    •  You probably do not need to do mixed-methods
    • Your dissertation/do project is simply a demonstration project (it must demonstrate to the academy you are worthy of the degree)
  • Scholarly writing and APA are a huge part of the process
  • Ensure a solid topic:
    • aligned with your degree and specialization (you might need to “turn the lens”)
    • it’s something you want to be known as an expert in (and will hold your interest for years)
    • substantiated by recent (3-5 years) scholarly (peer-reviewed) research (you must be able to answer: Why are we doing this research?)
    • consider the population – if “protected” per IRB you might need to “turn the lens” (instead of minors/prisoners, etc. maybe the people who work with them?)
    • consider data collection (how will you access the population?) 
  • Seek alignment before you write your proposal (is the problem, purpose, RQs, design, analytical strategy aligned?  See below for Dr. Lonny's download and also this episode that speaks specifically to the issue of alignment:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/1547113/7455607

Lonny (Lawerence) Ness holds a PhD in Business Management and has been in the field of online higher ed for nearly 20 years. To date he has worked as a chair with close to 100 graduates. Not only is he the founder of Dissertation101 Mentoring Services, Inc. and mydissertation.coach, He is also the founder of donut explorers created as a community to seek, share, and promote the world's best donuts. 

Connect with Dr. Ness:

@mydissertationcoach1 (Facebook)
@mydissertation6 (Twitter)
https://bit.ly/3rWQYF6 (Youtube)
mydissertation.coach (website)
https://mydissertationcoach.quora.com/ (Quora)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dissertation101/ (LinkedIn)

Annotated Prospectus Template & Literature Review Matrix Template: https://mydissertation.coach/downloads

Recommended resources: https://www.expandyourhappy.com

Get the article: The Doctoral Journey - 12 Things You Should Know (that they probably won't tell you!): https://www.expandyourhappy.com/HDSP121

Support this free content and buy Heather a yummy green tea: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/expandyourhappy

Lonny Ness: [00:00:00] When we consider the yellow brick road, Dorothy started in the land of Oz and wanted to get to the Emerald city. You know, the munchkins said, well, just take the yellow brick road and it will take you there. So all she knew was get on that road. She didn't know any thing else about the road or where it was taking her.

So we look at the doctorate a lot the same way. 

Heather Frederick: [00:00:24] You're listening to the Happy Doc Student Podcast, a Podcast dedicated to providing clarity to the often mysterious doctoral process. Do you feel like you're losing your mind? Let me and my guests show you how to put more joy in your journey and graduate with your sanity, health, and relationships intact.

I'm your host, Dr. Heather Frederick. And this is episode 27 today. I'm excited to host Dr. Lonny Ness. Dr. Ness holds a PhD in business management and has been working in the higher ed arena since 2007 when he left his corporate gig in IT management to follow his passion of helping others achieve their goal of obtaining a doctorate.

He is well-known for his ability to mentor doctoral candidates. In fact, when I reached out to a core group of my colleagues asking who they would recommend as a dissertation coach, they sent me only two names, Helen Montgomery, who was interviewed in episode 24. So if you haven't checked that out, you'll want to, and Lonny ness.

Dr. Ness has served in formal roles like lead school dissertation reviewer, and dissertation course instructor. To date. He has worked as a chair with close to 100 graduates. Not only is he the founder of Dissertation101 mentoring services, Inc. And my dissertation coach. He is also the founder of donut explorers created as a community to seek

share and promote the world's best donuts. Lonny, welcome. 

Lonny Ness: [00:02:01] Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 

So Lonny, we talked before the show and there are so many different ways this conversation could go today. But one of my favorite blog posts of yours is related to Dorothy and the wizard of Oz and how the doctoral journey kind of parallels her journey.

And I thought it would be fun to start there. 

Yeah. Yeah. It's a passion of mine to help students get on the right path, to success, to what we call a done dissertation. And what I find is that when students experience difficulty, anxiety, trouble, Time delay, increased costs, it's because the path that they're on is a Rocky path or isn't the right path.

So I like to work with them to make sure that they get on the right path to doctoral success. And that means looking at their topic and identifying potential pitfalls, roadblocks, hazards down the 

Heather Frederick: [00:03:04] way. ? 

So not unlike Dorothy, who had to deal with wicked witches and flying monkeys, the doctoral candidate

often has a lot of these kind of things coming at them from all directions. And one of the things that is one of your strengths is starting from the very beginning with the topic. So I would love to have a conversation about how do you direct students. What are some of the first questions you'll ask students to consider when they're thinking about

their dissertation topic. 

Lonny Ness: [00:03:40] Great question. When I have the opportunity to work with them upfront on topic development, I ask some key questions, but the questions are, is this a problem that can be substantiated in the literature? And that is a real tangible problem. A lot of times I'll see a problem that says that the problem of this study is to show that or to understand how people feel. Well

those aren't problems. Those are symptoms or things that you want to do, also what we know as a purpose. So when we talk about a problem, I try to get them grounded in a real, tangible problem that can be substantiated in the literature that's aligned with their degree specialization. That they are knowledgeable about passionate about hopefully

and that would result in contributing new knowledge to the body of literature, which means that they also have to identify the gap. That all begins with the literature review, knowing what exists, and then also as importantly, what doesn't exist. So that's where we begin. Now. If I have students that are further down in the process and they say, Dr.

Lonny, can you review my proposal? Which has chapters one through three. Typically I'll say, yes, I can, but I'm going to start with your topic. We're going to look at the problem. We're going to look at the purpose. We're going to look at the research questions and we're going to make sure the topic is grounded, that it's aligned and that it logically leads to the methodology and design that you have proposed.

So that's where we begin, no matter where I'm at with a Student. 

Heather Frederick: [00:05:22] Yeah. We talked time and again, on this podcast, about how this is just foundational, you cannot move forward until you've kind of crossed these T's and dotted the i's of the things you were just speaking of. And you had so many different layers in there

let's just peel some of those back. Let's start with, Hey, is this topic even aligned to the program that the student is in, because I can't tell you how many times I have worked with a student and they will give me a topic and then I will ask what their degree is in or what their specialization is in.

And I'm shocked by their answer because there's no relationship. Right? 

Lonny Ness: [00:06:00] Yeah. You know, there's a lot of things that are going on in the world that people are passionate about and that they want to research. I understand it. I get that. But if you're in the school of business, let's say, your topic needs to align with a business related problem.

So when I see that, that problem is focusing on the individual, I'll write back and I'll say, Let's see how we can turn that around to focus on the organization versus the individual. Now that doesn't mean that that individual isn't going to be helped as a result of your study. It just means that the focus is on how business addresses that

problem for the individual. So I had a recent one come through about working mothers and working mothers role in leadership. And the problem that the student was seeing with regards to that, especially during COVID and they're in the school of business. So rather than focus on the role of the working mother and leadership

let's focus on businesses and how they are encouraging and enabling working mothers to be leaders in their organization. 

Heather Frederick: [00:07:19] So with that example, you could have a topic that maybe just needs to be tweaked or repositioned so that it would better fit into what your actual degree in specialization. 

Lonny Ness: [00:07:31] I call that turning the lens.

You know, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. We want to take that nugget that that student has, that passion, and we want them to see how we can refocus it, to meet their school's criteria for their specialization and how we can transform that into a research topic. 

Heather Frederick: [00:07:53] Now I have seen,

and I'm curious, you've got quite a bit of experience as well. Have you sometimes seen students come with a topic that is just really a personal topic and is in no way related to their degree program, which might suggest that they haven't really thought out where they want this degree to take them.

Lonny Ness: [00:08:13] Yeah, absolutely. We have seen a lot of topics coming through recently about social issues that have been evident and prevalent in the news and that many people are passionate about. And, you know, and that's a good thing to be passionate about issues, social issues, but there are instances sometimes when it just does not really easily align

into a, a specific degree. However, if we take some of the social issues in terms of racial justice and other areas, they can translate into business and education in terms of how social justice is handled within those organizations. 

Heather Frederick: [00:08:54] So there's the twisting or the turning or the refocusing. What was the term that you used?

Lonny Ness: [00:08:59] Turning the lens. 

Heather Frederick: [00:09:00] So it might be that as you're listening to this podcast, you're thinking, wow, there's this issue I really do want to focus on, I'm going to see if I can turn the lens to make it fit. One thing that I have seen is that students maybe don't spend enough time when they're picking out which program they're going to enroll in and realizing that the dissertation should be just a logical step on this road to where they want to be.

So let me give you an example. If you want to be working, one-on-one in a therapeutic relationship with someone and you'd like your dissertation to be on something like PTSD and depression with veterans, you're probably not going to be pursuing a PhD in business, for example. 

Lonny Ness: [00:09:46] Yeah, that's true. Getting into the right degree

specialization is kind of the chicken and the egg syndrome, but aligning where your desire is, where your research interests are with your degree specialization. Now there's also a philosophy that says, you know, just get your degree and don't worry about what the topic is in. But I find that when you take that approach, students' interests tend to wane over time and it's difficult for them to

persist to the end. So to the extent that we could align the topic with their passion, with their understanding and experience, because you know, it's enough to have to learn how to do a dissertation, how to conduct research without also having to learn about the topic itself. So in my case, I was in IT management.

So I did my research on IT flexibility and business alignment, because I saw that as a problem. And I was passionate about that on how it flexibility can assist business transformation. And it turned out very well, but for students who just aren't aware of what they want to research, it creates a third leg of complexity that may be difficult to overcome.

Heather Frederick: [00:11:02] And I think this idea of persistence and motivation waning is a huge one, because this is a research project you will literally be spending years on. You want to make sure it's something that's going to benefit you longterm. You are going to come out as an expert in this area, right? So why not make it be something that can benefit you in your future career and your future?

Lonny Ness: [00:11:26] Right? So when we consider the yellow brick road, You know, of course, Dorothy started in the land of Oz and wanted to get to the Emerald city. You know, the munchkins said, well, just take the yellow brick road and it will take you there. So all she knew was get on that road. She didn't know any thing else about the road or where it was taking her.

So we look at the doctorate a lot the same way because you sign up for the program, they said, take these classes and it'll get you to your destination. And that's true. So I say, trust the process. And enjoy the process because it's intended to take you to where you want to be and they do, or they wouldn't be there.

But when it comes down to topic, selection, and alignment, with the purpose and research questions, it will get you on the path. But it doesn't get you to the end because there's a lot of things down the road relative to that topic that need to be understood and anticipated. So as a chair and as a coach, that's where I come in because I've been down that path so many times, like you said, almost a hundred as a chair and then thousands as a coach and professor.

And one of the big areas that I look at is data collection. When you develop a topic, do you have access to the population that will get you enough data and the right data to do your analysis, whether it's qualitative or quantitative? So we look at how specific is the topic, how broad is the topic or the population, and what is the data that you need to collect to do that analysis?

And we can do that all upfront. And when we consider the protection of humans, as the institutional review board, IRB, gets involved, we look at, there are certain protected populations and prisoners, for instance. I see a lot of studies coming through on recidivism and prisons, and that's a great topic, but it introduces a layer of complexity in terms of getting approval and access to that population.

So we just, we look at that up front and we say, okay. But if we look at the wizard of Oz, you know, that's the flying monkey coming at you, are we going to be able to get through that okay? 

Heather Frederick: [00:13:44] And I would love to spend a little more time with this because my experience, especially when I'm at a residency is that this is not something people think about because how would they know? Here they are starting a doctoral program,

like you said, they're on the yellow brick road, one foot in front of the other. They're not thinking, Oh my goodness, this is a protected population. In fact, a lot of people who haven't been through their IRB training might not even know what that is as we're talking. So you mentioned prisoners, children are another one, pregnant women, basically vulnerable populations.

So like you said, Hey, looking at recidivism, this is a great research question. This is a great research area that clearly we need to know more about, but are you introducing more flying monkeys than you need in this process that you're going through? And I will have people's faces just fall right in front of me going wait

but my passion is sexually abused miners. And I'm thinking that's never going to happen, not as your dissertation. That doesn't mean you can't study that after the fact, but kind of rolling things back and getting perspective. The dissertation is simply a demonstration project to the university. You need to prove you have a requisite set of skills that are commiserate to whatever degree the university is going to be awarding you.

What kind of project can we create that is still in your area, but reduces these flying monkeys. Would you 

agree? 

Lonny Ness: [00:15:18] Absolutely. And in a situation like that, I think we'll go back to turning the lens and refocusing, and we say, you know, that's a great topic, but let's say you're in the school of business rather than talking to prisoners or in the area of, uh, sexual abuse of minors.

Maybe talk to the people who deal with those organizationally and how, how they can better treat them or enable success of that population. 

Heather Frederick: [00:15:45] A lot of what we're talking about today is about being curious and creative, right? Because you could say, well, now that I understand this is a protected population, how might I still study this by asking questions of people who aren't in that population?

Like for example, school psychologists, if you're interested in minors. 

Lonny Ness: [00:16:05] Yeah. One of my sayings is that doing a dissertation is both an art and a science. The science is actually the process of doing the dissertation, of writing the dissertation. The problem statement needs to be written in a certain way, the purpose in a certain way, the questions in a certain way, they all need to align qualitative or quantitatively.

And then of course the methodology. So that's the science, but the art is exactly what we're talking about, and that is turning that lens. Doing something that you're passionate about and making it fit within what the university wants to see. 

Heather Frederick: [00:16:42] Now earlier on you brought up something that I'd like to go back to.

And that was really grounding this idea in research because a lot of my guests have talked about students coming to the table with an interest that they have, but that isn't supported in the research. 

Lonny Ness: [00:17:00] Yeah. Whether it's a PhD or an applied degree, the topic is going to have to be grounded in the recent scholarly literature.

And typically we look at about three to five years as evidence that that problem for that topic exists. And that it'ssignificant. And if unable to show that there's a problem as evidenced in the literature, then it raises question as to why are we doing research on this? So I look at the problem as two parts.

One is that there's a problem that needs to be addressed. And two that there's a gap in the literature relative to that problem that needs to be filled. So the problem really isn't methodology specific. It can be qualitative or quantitative. There must be evidence that a problem exists and to experience that problem is potentially biased perspective.

If you're thinking that you're in a oral defense, And a committee member asks you, so why are we doing this study? Andyou say, well, it's something I experienced. Well, that's not tangible. That's, that's real per your perspective, but it's not tangible as evidenced in the literature. And that's really what universities are looking for.

The other thing committee members look for and the university looks for is, has somebody already researched this? So that's why we look for a gap. What is the new angle? What is the new finding that you're going to bring to light that will add to the body of knowledge? 

Heather Frederick: [00:18:34] The question I will often ask, or rather, I should say the sentence. I will often ask students tofinish is:. We know X, Y, and Z about this, but what we still don't know is, and it's almost like dissertation ad-libs fill, in the blank. 

Lonny Ness: [00:18:50] And I have a template that I use for the topic paper that includes verbiage for the problem, purpose research questions, and, and showing how those link together and how they logically lead to the methodology.

And that paper is actually available for download. It's just a great way to help prompt a student who's beginning development of their topic. 

Heather Frederick: [00:19:14] And I will be sure to have that link in the show notes because it is a great worksheet that people can work through and make sure they have clarity so that they can present this to their committee as an idea that can then be approved.

Lonny Ness: [00:19:30] Right. So the way I look at it, it's similar to my own dissertation. I, I was knowledgeable in the area of it management. I was passionate about this concept of IT  flexibility, which at the time was a pretty new concept, but I had to go to the literature, to find evidence that others saw this as a problem in order to say, okay, I can do this for my dissertation.

And that there was a missing element of the literature that I could add to. 

Heather Frederick: [00:20:01] Right. Because what you're doing as a doctoral candidate is kind of finding your place. There's this field that you're a part of this research area, and everyone's bringing their puzzle piece. Sometimes students have these

really innovative ideas. And I'll say, save that for after the degree, because part of your task at hand here is to fit in with the scholarly work that's been done and help promote it, help further it with your research. 

Lonny Ness: [00:20:33] Right. The other thing I see is that students tend to overcomplicate their topic. And for many reasons that I understand, they feel like, okay, the dissertation is the epitome of, of academic achievement and it is .

But they tend to over-complicate it, as you said earlier, what universities want is they want to see evidence of the student's ability to conduct doctoral level research and writing. That doesn't mean you have to do mixed methods research. I see a lot of topics where they automatically go to mixed methods and say, well, that's the hardest thing to do,

so that must be what I need to do. And that's, that can't be farther from the truth. So what we do is say, how can we achieve the university expectations within the minimum work so that we can ensure a done dissertation? 

Heather Frederick: [00:21:23] Right. And when you're saying minimum work, rest assured, we're not saying this is going to be easy.

We're saying let's work smart. Right? 

Lonny Ness: [00:21:31] Right. And again, it's for the goal of creating a clear path. There's always going to be bumps in the road. There's always going to be things that come up, which is why your chair and a coach and others around you are helping to guide you and see you through those. But the more resistance you can reduce, the better your erosion will be to success.

Heather Frederick: [00:21:55] And that kind of comes back down to trusting the process. You've got these people here to help you. So when your chair or even an instructor early on in your course is pointing things out like, Hey, 2008 really isn't recent. We're in 2021. I've had students say to me, you said recent resources. These are all published after the year 2000.

And I'm like, wow. Things change fast. Again, dependent on your field, but certainly for some fields, even five years is going to look dated. 

Lonny Ness: [00:22:26] Yeah. In fact, for the problem statement, I've seen some universities require a recent peer reviewed citation within three years versus five years, which is typical for the literature review, just to make sure that that problem is recent.

The other thing that I'll add, and these are two other sayings that I often tell students that are pertinent for this discussion is don't try to boil the ocean, do what you need to do, but don't try to solve the world's problems because the goal is to get your dissertation and to contribute to the body of knowledge.

The other thing I like to say is don't try to get your dissertation to win the Nobel peace prize. Because again, you can do that after you graduate, but right now the goal is to get your doctorate degree. 

Heather Frederick: [00:23:17] And set realistic expectations about what can be accomplished with this project. I've had students come to me with an idea, and this is what I want to do.

And I say, great, you have five dissertations, which one do you want to do this time? That's where either your chair or a coach can really come in handy in terms of narrowing it down. Or if you happen to come with a very, very narrow topic, which can be the flip side of that, helping you expand that a little bit.

So that again, you brought up, you need to have access to these data points and if you go too narrow, it might actually be an issue of there aren't enough people to survey about that. 

Lonny Ness: [00:23:56] Yeah, certainly. And that also ties back to the literature review because I've had students say, you know, I'm finding so much on this

I don't know what to use, or I'm not finding anything on this how do I develop enough research, both citations and literature review. So finding that right balance is, is really important. 

Heather Frederick: [00:24:17] And, you know, since you brought up the literature view, I did want to note, I was poking around on your website today and you have a really cool literature review matrix

available as a download as well. So I'll make sure I get that in the show notes. I was like, wow. I wish I had, I wish I had seen this earlier. I would have shared it with a student I was working with last year who really struggled with that chapter two. So you've got some great resources I'll make sure that we can point the listeners to.

Lonny Ness: [00:24:41] Yeah, thank you. You know, back in the day of the dinosaurs spreadsheets were really valuable for organizing your research and it still is. There's software today that will help with that. But the matrix that I used just listed the sources by theme. I organize my, my research by theme, and then plugged in all of the various sources that I found, the keywords that I used, the themes that those apply to, the cross themes that they applied to,

and key quotes out of those studies that I felt that I could use eventually in my dissertation. So it ended up being a really good tool. 

Heather Frederick: [00:25:18] And, you know, I do realize there are free resources out there. These all came along well after I had completed my degree. So they are things that I personally didn't use, but I have to say, I see a difference in students who kind of go that old school Excel spreadsheet way, not to say you couldn't use the free resources to organize your citations, but it almost seems to create an opportunity to really analyze the literature

as you're creating the spreadsheet so that you can articulate a coherent story about what you just read. So I think there's multiple benefits in there for using a tool like that. 

Lonny Ness: [00:25:56] Absolutely. And you bring up one other thought and that is that getting your doctorate is more than just research. There's also a ton of writing involved.

So understanding good grammar, understanding proper APA, if that's what your university uses. You know, I tell students and clients that I didn't know how to spell APA when I started my doctorate, I had a lot of years between my doctorate and my masters, and I had to get caught up to speed. I find that

student struggle in the area of writing and formatting as equally as they do with topic and reading. 

Heather Frederick: [00:26:34] Just another one of those fireballs coming at you on this yellow brick road. Right. 

Lonny Ness: [00:26:38] Right, right. So it's good to have an arsenal. It's good to have resources and knowing who to go to and where to go to for help when you need it.

Heather Frederick: [00:26:48] Lonny, you've shared so many words of wisdom with us today, but do you have any final ones that you would like to leave with the listeners? 

Lonny Ness: [00:26:55] Well, you know, I mentioned a lot of different thoughts that I give students in terms of boiling the ocean and turning the lens and things like that. You know, I think the, the one that I go back to most often is just enjoy the process.

And it's not intended to be an easy process, as you said, and there will be a lot of challenges, but understand that upfront, have the proper expectations and have a community that you can work within to vent with to work with, to learn from, and to get past any roadblocks that you may come up with. But the process is there to guide you and to help you to be successful.

And everybody is in your camp, they want you to be successful. So just enjoy the journey. 

Heather Frederick: [00:27:42] Thank you so much for sharing your insights and your experience with us today. And I'm looking forward to having you back on another episode real soon. 

Lonny Ness: [00:27:50] My pleasure, Heather, 

Heather Frederick: [00:27:51] Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all the amazing downloads that we discussed today, and also all the ways that you can connect with Dr. Lonny, including his website. My dissertation.coach, the Happy Doc Student Podcast is brought to you by expand your Happy dot com and you can learn more there until next time.

Here's to more joy in your journey.

One more thing, just a quick reminder that the information opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only. .